Any possibility of a build site?

[lestat]

First off, I admit to not being up to date on the background issues of SD and how we got to where we are.

That said, is it possible/feasible/interesting to people to have a build site up and possibly allow some to build zones? I still have some maps of zones I intended to build and never did. I would love the opportunity to build zones, create items, and expand SD. I think it would bring alot of players back to the game if there was a prospect of new content.

[unicus]

At the moment I am not able to run more than one copy of the mud on that same machine without cutting back on many other things that are running there. Maybe sometimes in the future I can get back to having 2 servers running.

But even then that would only allow building, not porting. To port new zones into SD would require knowledgable checker gods also.

As far as new content drawing people back...
when people say that I find that they do not know the entire mud. So new content is unlikely to be as much of a factor as anticipated.

[lestat]

I think new content could help - not just the actual development of new content, but the sense that the mud is growing and evolving. If people are gone for 6 months, return, and there is new stuff to see, it makes the environment feel more dramatic. Just my opinion, anyways.

Considering I have been playing since 1994, I would gladly volunteer for a pure checker-god role to help allow for ports.

I would also volunteer to donate some money to assist in defraying the cost of running two versions of the mud, including build.

[maxum]

I could get a build site up and running within a week.
Actually, I could get an alternate play, a code and a build site up and hosted securely and all players ported across.
The trouble is Unicus will not allow the code to operate in a location outside of his direct control.
The only other person you could ask for that sort of permission is Uma, and I cannot get a response from them in any form. Considering they did not care enough about Shadowdale to pass ownership on to another administrator/implementor ten+ years ago, it is understandable they will not answer me now.

What options are there?

[unicus]

Yes I cannot give away someone elses code. There is a publicly available older version that was released to the net and is available for download called DaleMud. If you search for it you can even find the Rebl open source project for its advancement.

Like I answered you in email..
the best option would be to do a Havok as others have before you. Free reign on making changes and improvements. Havok was instrumental in the past as a proving ground for improvements.

And as I also suggested maybe asking nicely for a new DaleMud code release to do it with which might work better than asking to take over SD and change it.

[marla]

I still dont understand if you get your rocks off by roping people into helping the mud, then crushing them by giving them the run around over and over until they go away.
i have never met any of the supposed people that are happy to have the mud up and running just for running sake. Usually people come on long enough to smell the roses and realize it is the same b.s. that you have been passive agressively shoveling to people since the 90s.
IInever understand your double talk when it comes to your mud..
you say help, or run quests, but next week you come down like fire from god that noone will ever make changes, nor will the mud ever function as it did in the 90s.
how long will macbeth last until he realizes you are the biggest cock block the internet has ever made
im here tomake a community..you most likely with your unchecked ego doesnt know where to start.

[marla]

Ill swing by in a year or so. Cheers.

[unicus]

Yes Im passively aggressive, and you are openly so.

I dont think I have been pretty stolid in my stance about the mud.
I dont own it. I dont run it. I host it. If you want to take it over or change it then dont bother asking my permission to do so because Im stupidly honor bound not to do that.
How SD is managed is already laid out. It might be bumpy but that is how it is.
Your best bet is to work within that than to try and beg, bribe, or insult me into abusing root privileges.

So if you want to help SD run, then fine. I will try to reward any who do that.

[marla]

How about reward kahil/razz?
if your honor bound 'duty' is to make it so people can return to the mud,
then that guy has ALWAYS been sd's welcome mat.
he has helped more people, assisted more people than any of us have.
it might take a minute to look down from your high horse and see who keeps people here, you might want to reward him first.
multi user dimension..
i know a mud with no people would make your life easier, but that isnt what a mud is.
people come to play with other people most of the time.
as always, i await your same response.

[unicus]

Seriously? You want to go there publicly?
Why dont you reward him by not bringing this to open discussion.

[marla]

Do me a favor.
Passive aggressive threats that only inflate your ego when you do burst into a freezing/nuking spree
just make you look like the man child that you are.
nuke away bro
ill always be around.haha

do him a favor...do yourself a favor
shutdown sd

[karnax]

I think it's a difficult issue. I can understand where Unicus is coming from - he feels that he isn't the owner of SD and so it's not up to him to give up control of it to someone else.

On the other hand, just leaving it to stagnate is a far from perfect solution either. But my understanding is that Unicus has tried to find other people to take over in the past and they have abused their position.

So what we need is someone who is guaranteed to be trustworthy to take over and run SD in the best way possible. I suggest we set the magical pixies to work and get them to find such a person.

[qstodian]

Part of the problem is in old OLD Internet.
Unicus runs an Internet SERVER. Not a mud server. The mud is just one of the things on it. If you read the system info there are domains, email accounts, at least 2 worlds (the mud is one), and many multiplayer games.

The mud is one of the users on the machine. Like back when everyone logged into a server and ran their own services for the net. Asking for access is like saying "they arent here so give me their files and emails". Sure an admin CAN do that if they want to but I think the standard is still "keep or delete".
Reread what has been said. "stupidly honor bound" and "best bet is ask for a new public release".

As far as stagnation everything that SD did was committee. That was what made it different than other muds where it was run by a bunch of buds who agreed on everything or did things because one person thought it was a good idea. SD kept things balanced. So if SD is going to run like SD then we either need to ask old gods to return or make new ones (the SD way, not mutiny)

[maxum]

All of these things can be disputed, I honestly don't think there is a way forward.

Unicus feels he is not the owner of Shadowdale
Should read 'Unicus says he is not the owner.' His standard response to questions on ownership are to talk to Celestian or Uma. When I spoke to Celestian he told me to speak to Unicus as he operates it now. He also told me that if he had a copy of the code he would give it to me. Does that make me a co-owner now or give me the right to run this code? Uma is still not responding to my attempts to make contact, which opens the argument for a clear case of abandoned software. A point of note, the mud is not running from Uma's personal directory on the server.
It has only been when I talked about code changes Unicus disagreed with I got hit with the 'I can't do that' talk, anything he agreed with went straight in.

Havok was instrumental in the past as a proving ground for improvements
Name one change implemented first on Havok that has made it's way into Shadowdale. Havok was started during the prolonged Shadowdale absence that occurred when SD4 code was implemented.

asking nicely for a new DaleMud code release
Can I please have a new DaleMud code released including world-files.

The standard is still "keep or delete".
Maybe. I think the standard is more to check with the owner if they still want this server space reserved for them, and if no response archive. It would seem unethical to me to be continually restarting and running services under their name, yes? If you felt 'stupidly honor bound' to continue to do so then surely contacting the owner to discuss this would be a high priority.

So if SD is going to run like SD then we either need to ask old gods to return or make new ones.
Not quite right, you would need to ask, and succeed, in getting all the old gods to return at the same time. Making new ones is just as hard. Under the old way you would need to get two zones onto play to get to level 53. Also, considering Unicus is the only one doing promotions and demotions right now, and the only reason you would want to be a god is to make changes he doesn't agree with, you might be in for some disappointment.

What's best for Shadowdale?
This is subjective, and really the key thing everyone is arguing over.
Unicus believes that Shadowdale should not change and should be kept as is.
I believe Shadowdale should continue to grow and change.
Others believe other things, or variations in between.

The people I have spoken to all believe balance changes should occur, although we all have different ideas on just what those changes should be.
Lots of people really want to see new zones, either because they love new content or because they love to create new content for others to enjoy.

About 4 months ago I was asked by Unicus to do a quick item balance on Graveyard items which had made their way into play after I fixed the crash bugs in the zone. I did this, and it angers me that they wont get put into place, or even checked over.
10-15 years ago I was asked by Lillith to build an underground connector zone. I didn't want to, but I did it anyway, and I am angered that it will never get put into place, despite more than one attempt to do so in the times since.
During one of these attempts, I asked some other old gods who had partially or near fully completed zones on build to come back for a bit and make a hard effort to get them completed and set to port across. Almost all of them responded positively and did so. They all did so willingly because they wanted to see Shadowdale continue to live and grow. I feel really bad for asking now.

I find it really hard to believe that any of the old gods would prefer to see a static and stagnant version of Shadowdale rather than a growing, changing one. Although I have to believe this as I know it to be true in at least one situation.

If you are a Bartle test fan, Explorers need new content (half of the buzz is learning something first, so old unexplored content doesn't work), Killers need active PvP (arena with 3 people does not really work), Achievers can survive on old content and setting themselves goals and getting the best gear, but wont thrive, Socials need the other three to be present.

[lestat]

You can put me in the camp that would LOVE to see Shadowdale start to grow and evolve again, and I would also be willing to help in any way possible towards that goal.

I think it's a testament to the game that there are still people wanting to play and push forward after all these years.